Tim Holt is an educational podcaster who often has some interesting things to say:
What happens when a teacher comes up against a textbook company and it’s intellectual property protection clause?
In this case, the teacher is left with little help from their education “partner” and is left to fend for herself.
There’s an audiofile associated with this post (yes, it’s a podcast. There’s a feed). Go listen to it and see if you think this teacher should be allowed to do what she says she wants to do with Houghton Mifflin’s copyrighted materials.
This is an exercise in listening. Don’t listen to what you think she means. Listen to what she says she’s going to do.
Discuss.
February 9th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
If this is a listening exercise, then I will probably fail. Is it actually possible to not listen to what she means? I spend all day trying to hear what my students mean and not what they are saying when asking for help on problems. However, this is what I got from the podcast.
From my understanding, the teacher wants to record her textbooks into iTunes so that her students can take the textbook and an iPod shuffle home with the students. When the textbook company told her no and that there were CDs available, she then asked if she could transfer the CDs to iTunes and put those on iPod shuffles. She had nothing available through the textbook company that met the needs that she needed. She wants this to help not only the students but the parents who need help.
Since she did not get approval, she is having middle school students create their own books to record. I think this is an even better idea, because it is fostering creativity and so forth.
Is this a violation of the copyright laws? Probably is. If the book company thinks it is, then I think they need to catch up with the time. I really would like to know their side of their story in this debate. In my opinion, I do not think this should be a violation. The students are using the textbooks along with the audio files. It is not like she is not using their material at all. She is not profiting from this in any way that I know of. This is a good way of reaching students who the teacher may not have time to work with one-on-one in the classroom. It is also sad that, according to them, the book company did not work to find some way to help the teacher do what they want. I have a feeling that that teacher will not want to purchase any more books from that company.
Anyway, those are my initial thoughts on the matter.
February 9th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
The key phrase — and she repeats it — is “post to iTunes.”
Should she have the right to take the copyrighted story — or the HM produced CD/tape versions — and publish them in an open directory where millions of people can download them?
February 10th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
I thought by posting it to iTunes she was just talking about putting it on her iTunes so she could then have it on the shuffles. I apparently listened to what I thought she meant. I do not think she should be able to publish them in an open directory like that. Anyone, even those who have not purchased the items through the book company would be able to access it.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
“I thought by posting it to iTunes she was just talking about putting it on her iTunes so she could then have it on the shuffles.”
“I thought by posting it to iTunes she was just talking about putting it on her iTunes so she could then have it on the shuffles.”
I suspect that *she* did to.
But when you use that language to people who know that “post to iTunes” means make it available as an audiobook on iTunes for anybody to download, there’s a serious disconnect. HM has a legitimate interest in blocking that use.
This is why I get so *bent* about people using the right words for stuff. These terms actually mean something other than the way teachers are throwing them around. And this “oh, the poor teacher being beaten up for trying to use this great technology” kind of story is misleading and does nobody a service.
Now MAYBE she didn’t say that to HM. Maybe she actually used the proper nomenclature to describe what she wanted to do. Maybe HM *is* the bully in this schoolyard tale, but based on the evidence presented, I think this is not the case.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Thanks for keeping the conversation going…
Here is a take that perhaps may be missing here:
The teacher, because she understands the technology, also understands that in order to sync the ipod to the audio, she has to put the audio into iTunes on her computer, thus the “post to iTunes” comment. She did not say here, “Post to the iTunes STORE” which is the place where the whole world could DL it. She properly said she wanted to post to iTunes (the program) not to the iTunes Store (the online distribution center).
I think she used the correct terminology. I think the textbook company misinterpreted her words, or , didn’t read her correctly. In either case, they should have asked for clarification before sending her an answer.
Tim
El Paso
It is the textbook company that, in this case, and if you are correct,
February 10th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one, Tim.
As a long time — and repeated — producer of content, “post to iTunes” means to put the feed into the store in my world. I appreciate that you do need to sync an iPod using iTunes, but that’s not “posting” to the majority of podcasters I run with.
I still dont think you can blame the publisher for using the generally accepted interpretation of that phrase just because it’s not the meaning she intends.
February 10th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
I guess I am bad about “reading too much” into what she says too. As she was talking I understood her to mean that she was going to record the book to her IPOD, even though I clearly heard her say “Itunes” at the beginning.
Is there a copy of the letter or email she sent to the company? This would help determine the terminology she used. Maybe she got nervous during the podcast and used the wrong word.
Also, even if she used the word Ipod in the letter, I am guessing Houghton Mifflin would have denied her request. Everything is about money and they would expect her to buy the tapes instead of making her own audio. I don’t agree with this, especially since they are supposed to be a company that helps children learn, but money controls everything
February 10th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
No, there’s just this audio and the torch-and-pitchfork crowd going after HM for being mean.
As for buying the tapes, she said she offered to do that and rip them so she could “post them to iTunes” — and they said no to that too.
The operative phrase is “post to iTunes.” In the greater world of technology, that’s not the same as “syncing your iPod” and that’s what I’m having trouble getting through to people.
A podcast isn’t a podcast without the feed. “Posting” is not loading an iPod.
February 10th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
I still think that if HM were a true partner in education, they would have asked for clarification of her intentions, or even provided her with options…
This is also an incident, I think, of one person saying what she thinks is the correct term, and someone more technical hearing something else. It would be great if we all said the proper technical terminology, but in real life we don’t.
When we go to the doctor, we don’t speak in medical terminology, we say things like “It hurts when I do this.” Likewise, we don’t talk like lawyers when we go to a lawyer.
It is the job of the technical to help the non-technical and get clarification.
TBH
El Paso
February 10th, 2009 at 9:46 pm
First of all, I think that she definitely seemed to state that she wanted to put the text “onto itunes”. Initially listening to the story, I would automatically think that this would be on itunes for anyone to have access to which would definitely be a violation of copyright laws….in other words their worry that they will lose future money! After reading the current posts, though, i realized that she probably did intend to just upload to her ipod and allow her children to use it in the classroom or at home. Whatever the case, if she didn’t use the correct terminology (in some cases we think we are using it correctly but may come across very differently than what we actually mean…which may be the case here).
I do commend the teacher for coming up with a great idea and this may be something that textbook companies like Houghton Mifflin will consider in the future. I also commend her for trying to do the right thing by contacting them….as she said many people already copy in this manner and aren’t supposed to.
It sounds like she has found alternate ways to get around the issue by allowing the middle school to record books. However, I am sure she is disturbed at HM for the disagreement and this may cause a problem with purchasing from them in the future. But would any company allow this right?? I don’t think so if they are under any impression that it could be downloaded by ANYONE.
February 10th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Tim: “When we go to the doctor, we don’t speak in medical terminology, we say things like “It hurts when I do this.” Likewise, we don’t talk like lawyers when we go to a lawyer.”
Exactly!!
And if Janice had gone to HM and said, “I’d like to loan these books and associated audio files out to my students. How can I do it?” that would have been the equivalent of “It hurts when I do this.”
What she said was the equivalent of “I’ve got a green stick fracture of my left ulna.”
“Can I post it on iTunes?” is not the ambiguous request that you’re making it out to be. The obviousness of the situation notwithstanding, she asked a very specific question with a specific technical meaning which is clearly in violation of copyright law.
The fact that so many people involved in education clearly do not *get* that is a much more troubling situation than this HM case.
February 10th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Lowell,
If I went to the doctor and said ““I’ve got a green stick fracture of my left ulna.” I would hope that any really good doctor would verify that self diagnosis!
Likewise, HM reps, as the good education partners that they claim to be when they want you to adopt their product, should have 1) verified what she was wanting to do by a follow up email than 2) provided her with a satisfactory alternative that made both parties happy.
(See this blog about partners: http://snipurl.com/bo1p0 )
Perhaps she misspoke (your view). Perhaps she did not (my view). Either way, the company should have followed up to clarify either her position or their position.
She shouldn’t have had to wait three months for a reply. She shouldn’t have had to devise an alternative that went outside of the district adopted curricula. The company, in this case and in my opinion, was not customer driven.
Tim
El Paso
February 11th, 2009 at 12:34 am
Tim,
We agree on more than we disagree on here, including what a good diagnostician would do.
We agree what a good partner would be.
We agree that it shouldn’t take 3 months to get a reply.
We even agree that what Janice wanted to do should be allowed.
I think we agree that the solution that you and Miguel came up with is actually a superior solution.
I believe we agree that the copyright situation in the US is out of control. I happen to think it goes way beyond the problems with Education and extends a heck of a lot further into the warp and weft of creative life.
We agree that the company was not (and is not) customer driven. They’re stockholder driven.
We agree that a GOOD company would have done those things you suggest.
We disagree in that I would *never* consider any vendor to be my partner. I don’t care what the company says. They’re not going to partner with you in the sense you mean. Ever.
As a result I think we disagree as to what the expected result should have been to Janice’s request. You seem to think that HM has some interest in what a classroom teacher thinks. I think that HM is one of the last vestiges of a media monopoly that will soon be left behind.
I also think that they were absolutely right to turn do the request as phrased. I appreciate that you think differently on that. We can agree to disagree on the language issue. Given that phrasing, I would expect nothing else than the response she got. From anybody, so let’s not single out HM for our ire.
I think it’s dreadful that we’re not doing a better job of teaching teachers what this stuff is, what it means, how to use it, and how to talk about it.
Maybe you’d agree with that.
February 11th, 2009 at 12:47 am
I agree!
hugs and kisses!
Grin
Tim
February 11th, 2009 at 12:50 am
Heh.
February 12th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Reading your posts back and forth I think about using terms loosley. I find that even with working in a school system we need a universial way of teaching stratagies and so forth. I teach reading intervention, so I see students from many different classrooms. There are resources we use to help students remember rules on how some letter combinations make certain sounds or stratagies on how to read some words. It is so much easier if the students hear the same terms and rules in class and with me. Not all teachers use these stories. I don’t want to say one way is better than another but it causes confusion at times, just as the word post did with this company. Is it wrong to want to use the same materials or should we be free? Im torn both ways because what works for some may not for others, but with my little ones consistancy usually wins.
February 12th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Yes, that’s really the point to this, I think.
And it’s not really about consistency here so much as “generally accepted usage” and the problem is one of context.
I find this more with Educators than I have with other groups — a kind of presumption of authority. I’ve run into in other areas but in podcasting it seems to be even more virulent — or perhaps just more visible. Teachers insist that podcasting is what teachers say it is, even when it flies in the face of established custom outside the classroom. This extends to ideas like “podcasts dont need RSS” to this idea that “posting to iTunes” means the same as “synchronizing an Apple product.”
Tim and I had a (i hope) collegial discussion on a difference of opinion over the circumstances and meaning of this one episode. We actually DO agree on a lot here, but we disagree on the appropriate response that HM should have made and that disagreement is founded on our individual belief and understanding of what that phrase means. The authors on Podiobooks all use the phrase “post to iTunes” to mean submitting a feed to the iTunes music store. We use the phrase “subscribe with iTunes” to mean putting a feed into iTunes for local use. We use the phrase “sync with iTunes” to mean loading an Apple branded device with content.
The challenge here is resolving “what’s consistent?” and who gets to say what it means.
*I* believe that the reason the teacher got into trouble with HM is not because she wanted to put the files on local devices and loan them out to students but because she used a specific phrasing to ask for that permission — a phrasing that *I* understand to me “submitting the feed to the iTunes Music Store” but which Tim believes means “loading an Apple branded device with content.”
If everybody in Tim’s context believes that “post” means “load” then there is the consistency of which you speak. I know there’s consistency in my context because the 200 or so authors on Podiobooks fight with Apple and iTunes all the time to get our books published there. The problems arises when participants in the two contexts try to talk to each other using terms that both understand but neither appreciate mean something different to the other.
Kinda like an American in Scotland might react when being told by a hostel worker that they’ll be around to “knock them up in the morning at 6am.” That’s egregious enough that the American will probably question the colloquialism and learn that the staff will knock on the door to wake them in time.
It’s less obvious when a Texan goes to London and is told that the spare tire for his automobile is “in your boot.”
February 12th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Okay Lowell, then explain this:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/bits/2009/02/12/amazons-kindle-in-copyright-kerfuffle/1
Sounds to me like the teacher ran up against this kind of thinking….
February 12th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
I’d argue that Paul Aiken is making the same mistake that Janice did by saying that text-to-speech synthesis constitutes an “audio right”
From the Wall Street Journal Article:
“They don’t have the right to read a book out loud,” said Paul Aiken, executive director of the Authors Guild. “That’s an audio right, which is derivative under copyright law.”
Yes, he’s correct that audio right is a derivative work, but arguing that text-to-speech falls under that umbrella will have to wait for a court to decide. Frankly I think it’s a lot like arguing that changing the font color should be infringement. Audiobooks are a well recognized derivation involving a text, a reader, and an *audio* file. What is happening here does not involve an audio file at all.
And he’s being pilloried by authors. I expect the Authors Guild will see a new director soon. I know *I* won’t be joining anytime soon with that kind of brain dead management on display.
February 12th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Does anybody else agree that textbooks are on a downward spiral anyway? I am teaching freshman algebra now and I use my textbook as a guide since this is the first time I have taught freshman algebra. Last year teaching 6th grade math, I rarely used my book except as a means of assigning practice problems. I either create my own slides at home or I download a resource from smarttech.com and I teach the material the way I want to teach it, sometimes I use one of the other thousands of resources out there to teach different perspectives on a topic. My students get lessons taught from many different angles and I feel that it is very effective, and I have statistics to prove it. I think the teacher had a great idea, and made it her own, and her students would have benefited from this method. The ITunes issue is obvious, but there are hundreds of other ways, the simplest thing would be to not use the textbook and use another resource. After about a week worth of wait from the company to respond, I would have found another way. I did a basic search and found thousands of resources with audio to help students learn to read. I think textbooks are on their way out and that these companies should be embracing these technologies and probably should have offered this woman a job and charged 0.99 per download of an audio track just like they do for all of the others on Itunes. They could have made money instead of losing a possible adoption in that district in the future. JMO
February 12th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Textbooks are problematic. I have a serious problem with my Distance Ed course because I haven’t written that book yet and I *really* don’t like the alternatives.
At some point, we’ll be where we can say to students, “you don’t need to buy a textbook, you’ll be writing one this semester” and neither the students nor the administrations will go nuts.
February 12th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
In response to Jason’s comment: “Does anybody else agree that textbooks are on a downward spiral anyway?”
I work in a Geometry class where the students only use their textbooks as a reference tool for larger projects and such. Day to day lessons are created by the teacher, and she uses Accelerated Math to generate individual assignments for each of her students. So I definitely agree with your comment.
February 12th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
The teacher said that she wanted to post HER recordings to I-Tunes. If that is the case, then no I do not think that the teacher should be allowed to to this. One the copyright issue. Two the company would want to have control over the quality of the recordings because their name is attached to the product.
Now, that being said, I think that the teacher using the i-pods to reenforce reading skills is a great idea! And the lack of consideration of the company is appalling! They needed to step up and create a podcast of their resources or give the teacher a workable alternative–better than one CD for 20 some students. These companies need to support us, not make it more difficult for us to engage and support our students’ learning.
Her solution is fantastic, however, now she has to wait for her stories to be ready–meaning her students have to wait to have this activity.
February 12th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
In response to textbooks being on a downward spiral: Yes, I truly think they are for many subjects. I very rarely use my reading textbooks with my students. I prefer trade books that they can choose and that are of interest to them! Textbooks in social studies (with the exception of books like History Alive) are only pulled off the shelf as an added resource once or twice a unit to read a little more or to drill home a point.
February 13th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Good conversations about the topic. I really don’t see a big deal about posting the text to itunes. True that people could download the audio, but why would they want to. To make the audio effective you would really need the books. I teach first grade and I see what she is trying to do. I think that it is a great idea because many students do not have anyone to help them at home. They need to audio/visual connection. I do however understand the copyright issues. Instead of just telling her no, the company needs to come up with a solution. Maybe they could start sending enough CD’s for an entire class with the series. I think it is great that she has gotten the middle school to help her make books to meet the goals for her class. It just seems that a lot of steps are being taken to reach those goals when a much easier solution is possible. I guess where the teacher made the mistake was asking for permission
Just kidding!
February 14th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Elizabeth-I know you were kidding, but, it is sad that one person out of several tried to be honest and do the right thing and is having so much trouble. Why is it that when one tries to do good things the right way it seems to cause more problems and take more time?
February 15th, 2009 at 12:56 am
Here is what her solution will end up being, and in the process, the textbook companies will be left out in the cold because of their inability to deal with disruptive technologies:
http://www.learnoutloud.com/Free-Audio-Video/Literature/Short-Stories/Lit2Go-Audio-Files-for-Kindergarteners/23891
February 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
I agree that textbooks may have a dismal future if they do not change with the times. I also agree that copyrights are out of control in America. Companies are struggling and average people are not obeying copyright laws for various reasons. Some do not know that they are breaking the law, some don’t think that it is a big deal, some don’t think that they will get caught, and some people do not care. How many of you click accept on user agreements without reading them? You may because you don’t want to spend that much time reading them or they are written in legal jargin that you do not understand.
As for educators needing to use the appropriate terminology, I can see how that can be a problem. I think that one problem is that a lot of schools are not trying out new things until a teacher in their district shares their new tool with others. If that teacher discovered it, he or she may not have studied it enough to truely understand the terminology. I recived an I-Pod for my birthday last year. The only reason I know how to use it is because I played around with it. I would have called said that I was posting a C.D. to my account just like this teacher. I really think that she wanted it on her I-Pods without adding it to the I-Tunes Store where anyone could download it for free. I think that her intentions were innocent.
I think that teachers need to learn the appropriate terminology that goes with various forms of technology, but this may keep some of them from trying new things. It is difficult to keep up with the demands of teaching in a public school and to grasp all of the new lingo that is thrown around in PD meetings. Now we are adding more terms to learn that seem to be growing by the day. I cannot keep up with all of the new forms of technology, let alone the appropriate terms for everything. I am not trying to make an excuse for educators, but if I am mixing up terms or cannot explain what it means to add music to my I-Pod, but not the store, how are my collegues who do not even own an I-Pod going to fare?
This post is really unorganized. Sorry. Basically, I would want to have my terms right when talking to a company, but sometimes I think that I am right when I am so off base. I wish textbooks companies cared more about who they are selling to than the money that they will make. Last year we adopted new social studies books during the summer. We didn’t recieve the books until we were over a month into the school year. We didn’t recieve the teachers’ editions until may. This helps me relate to the three month wait for a reply.
I think that educators are going to be tip-toeing around copyright laws or outright breaking them for years to come. Solution anyone?
February 18th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
Can companies interested in making money be true partners with educators? I had a bad experience with a textbook company not delivering the product after they were paid. They eventually did at the end of the year. I hope that companies can partner up in a fashion where learning and money making take place. What would be the point in a company helping without gaining something for themselves. They are in buisness. Today I participated in a training with Apple on their I-Touch. Our district is investing in a couple of class sets, and I was one of the lucky educators that was given one to try out. Our building is going to pool our seven I-Touches so that we can use them with our classes before the class set arrives in April. Basically we are going to trade off. I have some concerns that I hope that some of you can clear up. I am fairly new to the Apple world.
1. If we share a class set across a school, how do we deal with charging and syncing the I-Touches? When you sync to a new computer, the other computers stuff is erased? Will this be a problem for a school?
2. I understand, I think, that I-Pods can sync to five computers or is it the I-tunes account? What happens after that?
3. What is it called when I add my C.D.s to my I-Tunes account? I think I have been saying that I have been “posting” my songs, but I am only placing them on my computer, not on the I-Tunes store.
4. When I want to get a new computer, can I take my enture I-Tunes library with me? I am afraid that I am investing money in songs that will stay on my old computer when I am ready for a new one.
Okay, I feel kind of dumb asking these things, but the new computer thing has been bothering me.
February 19th, 2009 at 7:42 am
I’m not an iPod expert and I’ve never dealt with an iTouch but this is what *I* think happens.
1. If we share a class set across a school, how do we deal with charging and syncing the I-Touches? When you sync to a new computer, the other computers stuff is erased? Will this be a problem for a school?
When you sync, you sync the device with the computer you’re attaching to. I *think* you can tell it to only move the things you want to move but I’m not sure.
If I were going to set this up to be a school based effort, I’d designate a single computer — perhaps in the library — to be the “filling station” and have everybody sync there. While there’s a limit as to how many computers a single device can authorize, I don’t know if there’s a limit on the number of devices that can be authorized on single computer. More, if you’re looking to have students get content that’s specific to class, then making that content available in a central place so they can go there, grab it and go, makes a certain amount of sense.
2. I understand, I think, that I-Pods can sync to five computers or is it the I-tunes account? What happens after that?
It’s by computer. If you try to add another one, it gives you an error. I’m not sure if you can contact Apple to de-authorize a computer or not.
3. What is it called when I add my C.D.s to my I-Tunes account? I think I have been saying that I have been “posting” my songs, but I am only placing them on my computer, not on the I-Tunes store.
The term is “load” (or “add to”) when you put tracks into your iTunes music library. You “load iTunes” (or “add to my library in iTunes”).
As we covered in other places “post to iTunes” means taking an RSS feed and submitting it to the iTunes Music Store for inclusion in their podcast section.
4. When I want to get a new computer, can I take my enture I-Tunes library with me? I am afraid that I am investing money in songs that will stay on my old computer when I am ready for a new one.
This is a toughie. I *think* if you have your music collection on your iTouch, you can then download it when you sync the device to the next computer, but don’t quote me on this.
February 20th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Thanks for the answers. These things were just puzzling me. I wish I had asked the Apple people when they were here the other day. I am a little intimidated by technology, but still eager to learn.